An Interview with Arvo Pärt: Sources of Invention

Author(s): Geoff Smith

Source: The Musical Times, Vol. 140, No. 1868 (Autumn, 1999), pp. 19-22+24-25
Published by: Musical Times Publications Ltd.
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An interview with Arvo Part

Sources of invention
GEOFF SMITH talks to Arvo Part about the sources
of his musical invention and the compositionalprocess
T A TIMEwhen publicists worldwide extremes (of dynamic, register, silence), shaped
are clamouring to apply the media- by an uncompromising concern with the numi-
driven rules of popular culture to sell nous, and framed with terse master-craftsman-
'high' art, the music of Arvo Part ship. There is both the absolute detachment and
seems particularly vulnerable. The 'minimalist', absolute beauty one finds in the work of S. John
'mystical', 'contemplative' tags and their tired of the Cross and, far from an escape, it seems an
associative meanings abound, as does the contin- heroic attempt to re-establish lines with our col-
uing image of Part the pious pontiff. In the musi- lective unconscious. One needs the receptivity of
cal world, too, his work is carelessly dismissed as the Princess and the Pea and all the aural acuity
a fashionable, neo-medieval short cut to quasi- one can muster if Part's'invisible bridges' to the
enlightenment and has attracted relatively little hidden worlds within the triad are to be crossed.
serious musicological study. This interview, conducted in German and
Part himself tends to talk of the compositional translated by Elke Hockings, took place at
process in biblical terms and, listening to his Universal Edition's London office in 1998. Part
music, there is a sense of adjusting one's eyes to a was accompanied by his wife Nora, who, in a
light one was least expecting. There is certainly partnership resembling that of La Monte Young
no trace of the quietism or spiritual limpness so and Marian Zazeela, helped him steer a course
often assumed; rather, it is music born of through difficult terrain.

Geoff Smith separatedfrom it. Yet,I did not want to create art.
Your fellow Estonian Errki-Sven Tuur recently I wanted to free and distance myself from making
told me that the most important experience he artificialart. RatherI wanted to combine two dif-
had as a young composerwas hearing Tabularasa. ferent issues; namely, art and life, art and being.
He felt it was the first piece he had heard that This approachcomes from a completely different
wasn't concerned with language, style, the past or perspective and has a different starting point. It
the future, but that was about 'soul'. How did you doesn't need to start from art.
manage to rise above what you called the 'chil-
dren'sgames'? GS
Is your art a result rather than a starting point?
Arvo Part
Ah... well..., I did once speak of a 'sand pit game' AP
referring to a kind of composition commonly If there were no continual effort to start from the
associated with the Darmstadt-School.I wouldn't beginning there would be no art. I cannot help it
even know if I myself have risen above those but start from scratch. I am tempted only when I
'children'sgames' yet. It is difficult to tell. But at experience something unknown, something new
the time it was an attempt at - and a conscious and meaningful for me. It seems, however, that
decision for - a correction. this unknown territoryis sooner reached by way
of reduction than by growing complexity. Re-
GS duction certainlydoesn'tmean simplification, but
Are those 'children's games' inherent in art for it is the way - at least in an ideal scenario - to the
art'ssake? most intense concentration on the essence of
things. In the compositionalprocess I always have
AP to find this nucleus first from which the work
The artistic reflection of ideas, style, history etc. will eventually emerge. First of all, I will have to
is indeed a form of game. Art, however, cannot be get to this nucleus. Everythingdepends on which

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 are not independent from each other but relate as
starting point and process. This geometry is an
abstraction not unlike a mathematicalformula.

GS
Once you've found this nucleus, what is the first
musical incarnation of the formula?

AP
It can be many different things, yet each one of
them would relate to the nucleus only partially.
Just as there are many different languages, this
'artistic incarnation' can take on many different
forms. It does not necessarily have to be a sound.
It could be a movement [Arvo Part moves his
hand]. It's got something to do with life, and,
with this movement, as it were. Conducting, for
example, is a relationship between music and
motion. Surely this is not coincidental. I think
there is a sharedsynaestheticconsciousnessamong
painters,musicians and choreographers.I am con-
fident that one thing stands for all. One is all.

GS
Do you need to search for this nucleus every time
you make something new?

AP
Somehow, yes. But at the same time not quite...
The way to get there is not so simple since the
truth is hidden deeply in the human heart.

Nora Part
It would indeed be very difficult to answer this
question in one sentence. It is a dialectical pro-
cess. Since Arvo has faced this question for a long
time he has naturally gathered a great deal of
experience. But his attempt to embark each time
from zero, to really start from scratch, this is a
Arvo Part (Photo: Malcolm Crowthers) very important aspect.

nucleus, or which part of the nucleus, I choose GS

(or am able to choose at a given time) and on the How do you view your earlierworks? Paul Hillier
profundity of consequences. Imagine, for exam- draws an evolutionary line from the very earliest
ple, you look at a substance or an object through works. Do you accept that? Or are those pieces a
an electron microscope. A thousand-fold enlarge- lifetime away?
ment will obviously look differentfrom a million-
fold enlargement. Moving through the different AP
stages of enlargement you can see incredible It's self-evident that there is no argument for me
landscapes. Somewhere, though, there is a limit to hide behind. The Part of the past and of the
(let's say at the thirty million-fold enlargement). present are one and the same person, only my
The landscapes then will have disappeared.What ideals have changed since. In practical terms,
you can see now is a cool geometry:very particu- none the less, I find it rather difficult to listen to
lar and very clear. Most importantly, however, pieces from different times in one concert. I have
this geometry will be similar for most substances also noticed the audience having the same prob-
or objects. At first glance, this geometry has very lem with such programmes. I mean attentivelis-
little to do with the variety of those fantastic teners. There are many reasons for that. Only look
landscapes. Landscapesand geometry are, never- at my use of dynamics,and see how it has changed
theless, inseparable. The geometry is the point from the early works to today. You might then
where everythingstarts.Geometryand landscapes appreciatewhy it is inappropriateto present those

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works together.Just as the pupils of the eye only over by biographical or personal information
gradually accommodate to the change from light which cannot necessarilybe linked to Arvo'smusic
to dark, the ears too need time to adjust to strong directly. Naturally,you can always connect ideas
differences. Unfortunately,a lot of people are not - biographicalor not - with Arvo'smusic. Yetthe
conscious of the time it takes. We don't realise it meaning of the music is purely musical. Arvo is
because the ears are held in such good training in predominantly concerned with musical forms
our everyday life. But our minds and our hearts, and structure.
nevertheless, register the differencesand the need
for gradual transition. AP
The information coming from me is encoded in
GS 'mathematicalrules'...
How does your theoryof the nucleus apply to some
of the early works? Were those pieces a result of NP
magnifying, say, just ten thousand times instead ... which do not require a translation back into a
of a million? verbal language.

AP GS
Instinctively, I have followed that concept all the I know your views on the cult of personality but
time. But in my earlierworks it was a question of I was asking in the light of a comment by Philip
relationships and proportions. It was more a the- Glass who said that ultimately it is the artist we
oreticalconcept. These days I want to make some- are drawn to, whether that'sJohn Cage, Tolstoy,
thing 'palatable'. This has nothing to do with Picasso...
accommodating every taste within an audience.
There has to be, however, a balance between the AP
human perceptive faculty and the musical pre- You cannot say such things unequivocally! Of
sentation. All important things in life are simple. course Philip Glass is right in what he said but
Just look, for example, at the partial tones of the only partiallyso. Moments of recognitionbetween
overtone scale: the initial, lower overtones are composer and listener happen somehow like sit-
perceptible and easily distinguishable, whereas ting in two passing trains. You only make out the
the upper ones are more clearly defined in theory person in the other train during a fleeting glance
than audible. through the window. We composers have our
path to follow, and the listeners theirs. The artist
GS is also just a traveller,like the listener too. And
Some commentators have regardedTabularasa as still, we meet ... through music, let's say.
some sort of careermetaphor or Sarah was ninety
years old as a reflection of your own stylistic evo- NP
lution. How do you respond to these notions? There are as many answers to this question as
there are differentlisteners and personalities. It is
AP very difficult to separatewhat is genuinely insep-
The titles are not coincidentally or thoughtlessly arable, namely the artist and his creation. When
chosen. There are certainlyvery strong and direct it comes to the relation between composer and
relationships. But they are not necessarily the listener, there is another aspect to consider for
most obvious ones. At the same time, my com- Arvo. There is a link between Arvo's attempt to
posing might be inspired by the title. While I find the nucleus of a musical expression and the
tend to find a title for a particular work during profusion of aspects possible in the final work. It
the process of composing, there will eventually is thus that many people can find something in
be a point in this process where the title dictates his music which is surprising to Arvo. Music
to me how the work shall proceed. The relation- grown from a root can develop in multifarious
ship between title, biography and music is a bit ways unpredictable at the start of the composi-
like a wound: it does not just heal from the out- tional process. The flower developing from this
side but also from the inside. root has innumerable facets. Each one of them
attracts a particularperson reacting to a particu-
NP lar aspect. The listener obviously longs for this
I would like to add a comment here. I feel we are root, too. This is probablyalso the reason why the
moving on to dangerous ground. We've been in people who appreciate Arvo's music are so di-
the West for twenty years now. Since then there verse. Yet all hianthis
has nott ncri
h necessarily anything to
has been a growing number of texts on Arvo's do with the person of Arvo Part directly
music but very little of it is musicologically-
founded. In effect, almost nothing. This deficit in GS
musicological methodology is always smoothed He can'tbe responsible for their interpretation...

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NP personal decision fed by an inner conviction.
No, nor for what record companies do to him, or Styleis a mathematicalabstraction- an all-embrac-
the media. This is a rather sad story Arvo tries ing, unifying figure. Each style has its own dri-
very consciously to stay in the shadow of his ving paradigm and its own weapons. At music
music. This is obviously in stark contrast to the conservatories and academies, we all have to
current trends where the artist featuresheavily. learn how to write a fugue or any other poly-
phonic form in the style of Palestrina.A student
GS finishing his course 'with distinction' is probably
Do these issues make it more and more difficult reluctant to continue writing in a Palestrinastyle
to get to that nucleus every time? - even though he has learned it and is probably
in good command of it - simply because it is
AP alien to him. Palestrina'sgreatness certainly ex-
You do not have to believe everything they write. ceeds rules of style. The student must remain true
to himself. At the end of the day, everybody has
NP to rescue himself by whatever means he can. Tin-
Let'snot forgetthat the comments on Arvo'smusic tinnabuli was my attempt to tackle the problem
- even if confused at times - fit in well with the of polyphony
general trend of twentieth-centurymusic writings.
Contemporary music would not have survived NP
without the written explanations which were The technical resources of the tintinnabuli style
absolutelyessential.But in the case of Arvo'smusic, are comparable to the mechanics of the piano,
I believe we are dealing with a kind of music that standing as it were between the expressive aspi-
can speak for itself. This is why this whirlpool of ration of a pianist on the one side and the emerg-
words should not be dramatised.It might damagea ing sound on the other. Pianists study many years
little the image of the composer. But it will not until they no longer need to be aware of the
harm the music itself. At least this is what I hope. mechanics necessary for a particularsound effect.
The reflexes of playing have somehow become
GS automatic. The bridge between an experienced
Is 'tintinnabuli'a style or a system with its own pianist and a sound is mostly direct. When we
integrity?Couldyou imagineit being used by other hear a good pianist in a concert then we are
people? hardly interested in the mechanics of playing.
Arvo and the tintinnabulistyle relateto each other
AP in a similar way. He is in control of the mechan-
Not exactly as I do. I'm actually not that much ics. But it is only the mechanics, after all. The
interested in theoretical reasoning because I can prevalent reason for his decision in favour of a
deal with it in practicalterms.Still, I would formu- compositional rule is always based on his desire
late and sum up the theory one day should the for a particular expression. There is, however,
opportunityarise. This theory has the same clarity also a reciprocal process where the 'mechanics'
as the structureof breathing.It is so simple and tan- influences his compositional choices again. He
gible. I have internalisedthis formula.And with it recognisesthe beauty of the 'mechanics'and plays
thereareinnumerablecreativerealisationspossible. with it. But there is a second aspect to your ques-
With the availabilityof the written theory,it will tion: namely, as regards the future of music. I
soon be possible to set the whole text of the Passion would like to contributesome of my own thoughts
or Thomas Mann'sJoseph and his brotherseffort- to this question. The importance and the value of
lessly to music by a simple press of a computerbut- the tintinnabuli style actually lies not in the tech-
ton. My claim to let words write their own music nical aspect so often emphasised (even though it
makes some people laugh, particularlymusic jour- appears to be so formalised). The concept of tin-
nalists. They do not take it seriously.Theirpatron- tinnabuli was born from a deeply rooted desire
ising smile mirrorsthe sarcasmof those first men for an extremely reduced sound world which
who were told the Earthis round. As we all know, could not be measured, as it were, in kilometres,
they liked to endorse their smile with burning on or even metres,but only in millimetres.According
the stake. This isn'tmere fantasy! to my experience, the listener becomes increas-
ingly sensitised in the process once he is drawn
GS into this dimension. By the end the listening
Are you suggesting that the tintinnabuli style is attention is utterly focused. At the point after the
the future of music? music has faded away it is particularly remark-
able to hear your breath, your heartbeat, the
AP lighting or the air conditioning system, for exam-
I wouldn't know. To choose a musical language or ple. The composer draws us into this unknown
a particular compositional technique is rather a dimension with seemingly 'familiar'and harmless

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 musical material. This deception which is often The question is if they are renderedvoluntarily or
realised too late by many excellent musicians has not.
unfortunately led to several performance disas-
ters. We have made similar experiences with NP
musicologists. They question the scores for their Youwill need to explain what you mean with sac-
'secret'.Arvo would then point out things in the rifice, who makes it and in which form.
score, or I do sometimes, but with the disap-
pointing result that they wonder: 'Andthis was it, AP
was it?'. The minute steps which are vital to him As is so often the case: 'The stone which the
leave musicologists doubtful as to their potential builders rejected, the same is become the head of
effect. And yet, these small steps cause every- the corner.'(Matthew21, v.42)
thing! For twenty years we have supplied these
explanations. This only proves that the time has NP
not come yet for people to be able to perceive and I think what Arvo wanted to say was that you
to appreciatea 'full-stop'or a 'comma'. should apply a healthy amount of distrust to the
many recommended remedies for the salvation of
AP music, and that, ultimately,you have to find your
I am very happy that you can get your answers own way. This process of finding yourself may be
from Nora because she has observed me for the associated with sacrifices. Under no circum-
last twenty-seven years. She really knows every stances can this process be regulated by some
'full-stop'and 'comma'. superficialrules of conduct. This is right, isn't it?

GS AP
What drew you to early music? Naturally,I understandunder 'sacrifice'more than
a fight for justice with a sword in your hand.
AP Thereareenough examplesin music history,where
In our century we have somehow forgotten that the best music was written secretively,where com-
two times two make four. Old music was a bit posers remained unknown or even suffered from
like a breath of fresh air for me. At that stage, I persecution. This was often the best music. They
was missing something natural like that. I began did not fight for the fate of contemporarymusic.
to realise through old music that there are hidden They were simply plying their trade.
worlds behind two notes. Monophony has its
own language in no need of mediation by har- NP
mony I also began to understandat that time that I would like to hark back to the question of har-
harmony relates to melody in a very direct way. mony. Arvo has once publicly said that every-
The vertical and the horizontal aspects are insep- thing not concerned with the essence of music is
arable. They are not abstract entities. There is a to him superficiallycosmetic. Such a strong state-
reason for relating both together. ment needs some qualification:It is his own per-
sonal view that the connection between two notes
GS encapsulates the essence of music. We are talking
Are you suggesting that the theoreticalseparation here of the first living cell which is the starting
of melody and harmony caused the downward point for new works. This cell must have an artis-
spiral of Western music? tic merit in its own right. Only if this is the case
does the composer allow himself to employ all
NP other musical means. This is why he calls har-
I do not think that Arvo wanted to solve any mony, orchestration, timbre, rhythm (and much
problems of Westernmusic when he rediscovered more) 'cosmetics'in relation to his compositional
monophony as you seem to imply in your ques- approach. While other composers habitually
tion. His strong interest in monophony must be include all possible - and impossible - musical
seen as a personal attempt to overcome his own means into their composition from the very start
avant-gardephase. and paint with 'colours', Arvo draws ...

AP AP
The future of music history is not one of my main ... in black and white.
concerns. I have enough to do with getting my-
self out of this hole in which we all find our- NP
selves. Who will save whom in the end is un- And this is also the reason for the existence of so
known to us. It would be good if we all partici- many differentversions of Fratres.Right from the
pated somehow, and if we tolerated each other. It beginning, the concept of Fratres was not con-
is impossible to do without sacrifice of some sort. ceived with a particular colour in mind. I only

24 THE MUSICAL TIMES / AUTUMN 1999

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 I
I
#vt il - -
Tunc ex - sul - ta - bunt o - mni - a li - gna sil - va- rum a fa - ci - e Do - mi - ni,

A-
j; . .. l _ . -
Tunc ex - sul - ta - bunt o - mni - a li - gna sil - va- rum a fa - ci - e Do - mi- ni,

T|b I -.tm- ' 1

TuncIn |' ex
e- - s-a-u
sul - ta - bunt oo- - mn-
mni - a li -- gna isil - va- rum a fa - ci -e 'o - mi-m ni,
Do

By n - - 0 I
Tunc ex - sul - ta- bunt o - mni - a li - gna sil - va - rum a fa - ci - e Do - mi- ni,

G.O._

GObb,. /-^il
-
. . ,.

1, ll l m .l l
·I tw w w v w ''
V

A characteristic passage from Arvo Part's setting of Psalm 95, Cantatedominocanticumnovum

(© Universal Edition Ltd and reproducedby kind permission)

want to point out that Arvo does not see the it contemplation?A mixture of thinking and feel-
decline of Western music through harmony but ing? What is the state of mind that you cultivate?
that he pursues his own personal way which
should by no means be projected on to the cur- AP
rent music scene as a whole. You only need to key your perception up to the
right thing. No, that's not right ... [Arvo looks at
AP Nora]
One person prefers a flower in his vase, another
one a thistle. You have to admit: This is beautiful, NP
too. I will not rescue you...

GS AP
We talked about the difficulty of starting the jour- OK, I can't reveal all of my secrets here. You risk
ney towards the nucleus, and we talked about pouring the baby out with the bath water. Part of
what that starting point might be. Could you tell the answer is written into the music anyway.For
me how that then grows into say, Litany? the listener, there is a chance of a very valuable
experience in decoding this information.
AP
Litany was another kind of experiment. Litany is NP
not a typical tintinnabuli-worksuch as, for exam- I have a question. How many more questions do
ple, Passio or Tabularasa which are much more you have?
rigidly structured. I could say that the nucleus of
Litanyis like the pea under the mattress. I am not GS
a princess, but I can understand how such an I have more now than when we started!
irrationalthing could happen.
AP Geoff Smith is
Senior Lecturer in
GS Good! We met like the previously mentioned two Music at Bath Spa
Are you able to give me any idea of the process? Is passing trains moving in opposite directions. University College.

THE MUSICAL TIMES / AUTUMN 1999 25

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