siderea: (Default)
[personal profile] siderea
[Content advisory: alcohol]

I got Aunt C's booze.

Okay, some entirely unnecessary but entertaining back story. When [personal profile] tn3270 and I were cleaning out her apartment back in October, I tackled the pantry, on the bottom of which, under heaps of boxes of ziplocs andplastic wrap, grocery bags plastic and otherwise, and Tupperware, was, to my surprise, a cache of liquor. This was surprising because not only have I never seen Aunt C drink, I seemed to recall [personal profile] tn3270 reporting she didn't drink.

And, honestly, the assertion that she didn't drink was not contested by this find: the bottles that had been opened had been re-sealed with masking tape, and had thick layers of dust on them, and many of the bottles had never been opened at all, as evidenced by the unbroken tax stamps on them.

For those of you who were unaware, the federal government of the USA required that alcoholic spirits be sold with a tax stamp, sealing the bottle closed, until 1985.

Which meant that at least some of this booze was at least 30 years old.

Well, I like alcohol, so we shoved it all in a box and I hauled it home. Subsequently, I asked Aunt C about it.

She denied its existence.

I pointed out that I had it, and it was real. Given its apparent age and neglect, I asked, "I was wondering if it had belonged to your ex-husband, Ro–" She slammed her hand down on the table, "DON'T SAY THAT NAME". She then said that the upstairs neighbors must have snuck in and put that booze there in her pantry.

So my theory is that when she and He Who Must Not Be Named separated, she held on to his liquor collection out of spite. That perhaps explains some of it – other bottles seem to be from well after their separation, and was perhaps gifts given her. But I get ahead of myself.

Having gotten the bottles home, I dusted them and hauled them into the light, and discovered that two of the bottles had dated tax stamps on them. I'm sitting here with a fifth – opened, alas, and four-fifths empty – of Seagram's Crown Royal from 1955, and an unopened nip (1/10th pint) of Canadian Club from 1958, making them 62 and 59 years old respectively.

Most of the cache are liquors, plus a few things that seem to be wines; the liquors are mostly whiskeys, and all the whiskeys are blends. While most of the distilled spirits have been opened and are partially consumed, there are some notable unopened bottles. In addition to the 1958 nip of Canadian Club, I found unopened:

• A 750ml bottle of Folonari Soavi (wine).
• A nip from which the front and back labels, if any, had fallen off, but the tax stamp (maybe not authentic? but intack) has printed on it, on the cap, "Johnny Walker Scotch".
• A nip of Southern Comfort with intact tax stamp.
• A nip of Fleischmann's Whiskey with intact tax stamp.
• A fifth of Chivas Regal with intact tax stamp and original gift box.
• One litre of Dewar's White Label, no tax stamp, in gift box.
• Three nips of J&B, two with intact tax stamps, and one with the tax stamp detached on one side, but all unopened.
• A fifth of J&B with intact tax stamp.

Regarding that fifth of J&B: some quality time with Bing images and MastersofMalt.com suggests to me that the label design dates it to the 1950s or 1960s. The label is a match for this (though mine here is in much better shape), and not any of the later labels they have, but it has a screw-top. It would be useful to know, for dating, when they cut over from corks to screw-tops, but I haven't figured that out yet and there's no contact info on the J&B website.

I am increasingly suspecting that a whole lot of the alcohol is from before 1970.

The opened bottles are more diverse, thought there's an opened bottle of J&B that has the 1970s label. Besides that and the 1955 Crown Royal, there's a bottle of creme de cacao, a litre of Barcadi (hecho en Mexico!), a mostly empty bottle of Fleischmann's gin, a bottle of coffee liquer, a fifth of Metaxa ouzo, a mostly empty pint of Smirnoff's vodka, a bottle of Dubonnet (wine) the bottom of the bottle says 1975, etc.

Now I am trying to figure out what to do with it all. I'm not quite sure what to do with this information. Questions abound...

0) Is it safe to drink?
1) Is it good to drink?
1a) Are any of these things improved by age?
2) Is any of it valuable, in terms of money?
2a) If so, how would an American go about selling it?
2b) There are laws about this sort of thing, yes?

I already sampled the creme de cacao (it was an opened bottle) and subsequently got an upset stomach. Might have been a coincidence, but it wasn't, shall we say, a compelling taste experience that made me eagar to try again. I don't know if it's supposed to taste like that or went bad. Does creme de cacao go bad?

Similarly, I sampled some of the Seagram 7 Crown Whiskey (already opened) in one of those limited edition "crystal" decanters they do, which some random eBay listing (I'd link, but it's gone now) proposed is from 1969, so I guess it's 48 years old? I didn't get ill, but it didn't taste good to me. I don't know if that's because it went off, or that's generally what Seagram 7 Crown Whiskey tastes like. I wouldn't know, I've never had it previously; my tastebuds are innocent of the ways of blends, because I was introduced to whiskey by implacable single-malt militants.*

One of the problems here is that none of this stuff is my regular sauce, and I have no idea what it's supposed to taste like, for comparison purposes. And that's also one of the things that intrigues me – free samples of things I've never tried!

Also, I'd like to not get food poisoning, and I'd like to know before I crack something open that it would be worth a lot of money unopened.

Now I'm not sure if I have custody of things that are actually quite valuable, or are fabulously tasty rare treat, or whether they should be poured down the sink before someone mistakes them for potable, or something in between or a combination.

Advice is welcome.

* ETA, for the record: Laphroaig, at least until they invent something peatier. Classic over the quarter cask, and the older the better.

ETA2: This knowledgable-sounding blog post asserts that all private (unlicensed) sale of alcohol in the US is illegal. Furthermore, the USPS does not allow alcohol, and FedEx and UPS only allow shipping by people with licenses to sell.

ETA3: I just found The LA Whisk(e)y Society. Very educational. They are uninterested in blends younger than 1950, and nips of any age, so that rules my collection out.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-02 08:39 am (UTC)
lyorn: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lyorn
I wouldn't drink anything that is already open. Masking tape or not, this stuff oxydises, and the alcohol evaporates, leaving it maybe fit to drink, but not worth it. Stuff with protein or fat in it (cream, coconut, eggs, chocolate) I would expect to have gone off even closed and protected from light.

The higher the alcohol and/or sugar content the better it's chances.
The "productive" aging time of spirits is AFAIK pretty much over when it's in a bottle. (Different with wine). And very much over when it is opened.

Everything already opened I would pour down the sink.

The closed bottles, I would try to find out if something of this is valuable, either on the internet or with your usual knowledgable provider of alcohol, if you have one. The latter might also be able to tell you if it's drinkable.

If it does not seem worth selling (or attempt to - as a one time comics collector I can tell you that the price given in some collector's list won't be the price you get for it, unless you are extraordinary lucky), I would drink my way through it, with some precautions. Open bottle, sniff, taste, drink a bit, drink a bit more, wait until the day after tomorrow. And/or invite people who can add to your knowledge for a scientific experiment.

(I have to add that I am not a food chemist or a doctor, and that "what I would do in the absence of further information" might be stupid. But I've drunk from the occasional very dusty bottle with no ill effects.)

Edited Date: 2017-04-02 08:40 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 04:28 am (UTC)
vesta_aurelia: BUJOLD - I am who I choose to be (Default)
From: [personal profile] vesta_aurelia
Anything distilled that's currently open would work as a disinfectant, but I wouldn't drink it :)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-02 10:27 am (UTC)
heron61: (Default)
From: [personal profile] heron61
I agree that the opened bottles might be dubious, but everything else should be safe to drink, people regularly and safely drink wine that older than this, and there not much that can happen to unopened liquor, with the exception of liquors containing cream, which you don't seem to have any of.

OTOH, some of this stuff might have actual value. Also, the wine is likely to be terrible (but safe), but it might instead be good or perhaps even awesome.

Also, here's what I found on serious eats (a food blog which IME seems mostly quite reliable)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-02 11:53 am (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Anything with cream is probably bad.

Canadian whiskeys may be closer to bourbon than single malt. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_whisky Crown royal, in the time I've been able to drink, has often been considered plonk but the purple dice bag it came in was coveted. (Last year a crown royal blend won last year. Surprise.) I think Canadian club may also be plonk.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-02 11:56 am (UTC)
m_danson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] m_danson
If there is an anonymous comment about Canadian whiskeys. That was me.

Wine

Date: 2017-04-02 01:52 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hello!

I know nothing about liquors (except +1 for the first commenter: if it's open since a while, there is no alcohol left, and that's what keeps the thing safe to drink, so rather pour away).

For the wine, if it was in a room where the temperature changes, it's probably not worth drinking anymore. But it will absolutely not make you sick, and you can experiment :)
I recommend you open the wine, pour it slowly (to not take the bottom of the bottle) in a glass/crystal container and let it air a while. Maybe 30 minutes, maybe a night. Not more, in any case :)

Have fun !

Re: Wine

Date: 2017-04-03 02:17 am (UTC)
sauergeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sauergeek
I would expect a sweet dessert wine to be even more likely to go off than ordinary wine: the sugar still in it could be food for a wide variety of microbes, only a small fraction of which would produce anything tasty. Having done homebrewing for a while (albeit not for a decade now), the basic tests for dodgy beer are: 1) Does it smell funny? If so, dump it. Many of the microbes that produce things bad for you also produce things that smell bad. 2) Does it look funny when you pour it? There's one beer infection that can result in the liquid turning ropy; you don't want to drink that. Wines likely are subject to similar maladies. If it pours funny, dump it. 3) Does it taste funny? Dump it.

Re: Wine

Date: 2017-04-04 12:27 am (UTC)
lsanderson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lsanderson
Sweet dessert wines generally have very long lifespans. The sugar and alcohol act to preserve the wine. See sauternes and trockenbeerenauslese for example. Not that I think any of the wines found are either...

Re: Wine

Date: 2017-04-03 02:36 am (UTC)
sauergeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sauergeek
My understanding from a Srs Port Nerd is that keeping a wine bottle's cork wet is what keeps the cork and contents of the bottle from going moldy. Check the cork, and the surface of the wine, for any evidence of mold. If you find any, your best bet is to chuck the bottle; the contents have likely gone off in decidedly unpleasant ways.

Re: Wine

Date: 2017-04-03 01:24 pm (UTC)
fenicedautun: (Default)
From: [personal profile] fenicedautun
The Soave should have a date on it somewhere, and if it's more than 5 years old it's probably terrible. But open it and smell it. It should be a dry white, so if it smells sweet or musty, it's bad. (Dry white wines generally don't age very well, the longest are the heartier chardonnays that can sometimes go 10 years.)

Red wines can age in bottle 20+ years without a problem. Fortified dessert wines also age better than dry whites, but not 20 years, but they will change flavor over time. Regular (<12% ABV) sweet wines do not age any better than dry whites, and often worse.

(I had to go through J's wine cupboard when we were selling his place, and he had some lovely wines and champagnes that they had been "saving for a special occasion" that had to be chucked. My bet is all the wine is rubbish.)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-02 03:10 pm (UTC)
conuly: (Default)
From: [personal profile] conuly
If the bottles are really quite old and/or rare there may be a collector even if the contents are null.

Otherwise, while I believe alcohol is a really non-perishable, that doesn't mean it's always palatable. I, too, think you should probably ditch anything that's already been opened.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-02 05:36 pm (UTC)
illariy: a woman sits and leans against a giant white question mark (question mark in my head)
From: [personal profile] illariy
I think the creme de cacao might have dairy in it, that would turn bad. Stuff like whiskey might keep better.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-02 06:14 pm (UTC)
vatine: Generated with some CL code and a hand-designed blackletter font (Default)
From: [personal profile] vatine
Like many others, I would say that unbroken bottles of vodka, whisky, possibly rum, and other "pure" (for want of a better word) spirits are probably fine, and as far as age goes probably tastes close to what they did on bottling. Spirits pretty much only age in contact with wood and/or air (and non-wood air agin doesn't, in general, improve the flavour).

Wine (and beer, and mead, but that's out of scope for this question, I think) continues to age in the bottle. If the seal is broken, it is probably best destined for the sewers. If it's not, well, it might have improved or it might not have and MAY be worth selling on. No idea what to look for in the US, but in the UK I would photograph the bottle(s) and amble over to a wine merchant and ask if it was worth bringing these here bottles over for assessment and possibly selling on.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-02 06:29 pm (UTC)
skibbley: Photo of me looking at the camera with no background (Default)
From: [personal profile] skibbley
As far as I understand old whisky may have rarity value (and unopened can be quite valuable) but once bottled does not mature so if it was bottled as 10 year old scotch it is still a 10 year old scotch. Alcohol oxidises to vinegar so once opened you may find it tastes bad after a while (but this is not harmful) Alcohol prefentially evaporates compared to other ingredients so it may not be as alcoholic after time but the bottles sound pretty well sealed. Sugar and alcohol tend to preserve stuff so it makes it less likely something nasty is growing in there. I'd personally avoid things with ingredients like cream and wiould look and sniff to see if anything else smells off and otherwise try a little.
Me, I would keep the whisky, get a valuation on the wine and empty out the rest to use as candle holders or something.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 02:18 am (UTC)
cellio: (beer)
From: [personal profile] cellio
The scale is *way* different, but I once asked on Beer, Wine, & Spirits how long hard liquor keeps (safely and palatably), and this answer says decades if not kept in the sun or right in front of the radiator etc. There are some links there, including one to Serious Eats, for what that's worth.

I have some whisky and rum that is more than a decade old and it's still palatable. I have no experience with 50-year-old (+) alcohol.

(Also, I just asked on BWS about your J&B screw-cap. If I get anything I'll let you know.)
Edited Date: 2017-04-03 02:19 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 01:04 pm (UTC)
cellio: (beer)
From: [personal profile] cellio
Does it look like this? It sounds like they might have gone back to an older label after a switch in the 60s or 70s, or maybe they had both in production for a time?, so if you stopped looking when the label changed, maybe you got caught by that. If that's a match, you probably have a bottle of scotch from 1972 that at least one online vendor is selling for $129.
Edited Date: 2017-04-03 01:05 pm (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 11:10 pm (UTC)
cellio: (beer)
From: [personal profile] cellio
I wondered about the "quart" too, and note that the site that's selling it says "1L". (I can't see the "4/5 quart" part, so didn't notice that.)

The tag on a cord could have easily been lost sometime between purchase and when you found it. I've had bottles that've had such tags, but they haven't always retained them.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 02:33 am (UTC)
sauergeek: (Default)
From: [personal profile] sauergeek
0) Is it safe to drink?

The open high-proof booze is probably safer than the open wine or the liqueur. The still-sealed high-proof booze may well not have even lost much alcohol content, assuming the closure is intact.

1) Is it good to drink?

I have no idea how any of these would age in the bottle. Most of them will not improve in a useful way -- high-proof stuff sitting in a sealed glass bottle is not at all similar to the same liquid sitting in a barrel. Wines and beers can age in a bottle; I've never heard of liquor doing so.

1a) Are any of these things improved by age?

The wine might've been if it was sealed, but as it's open, I am quite dubious of it still being drinkable. Otherwise, no, my understanding is that once a liquor is out of its barrel, its aging stops.

2) Is any of it valuable, in terms of money?

2a) If so, how would an American go about selling it?

2b) There are laws about this sort of thing, yes?

To all of 2, I have no idea, nor do I know how to find out.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 02:53 am (UTC)
pie: (making pie)
From: [personal profile] pie
Once I picked up a bottle of 1983 table rosé from a person on my Buy Nothing group, who was also cleaning out her grandparent's liquor cabinet. It was horrid to drink as wine, so I made it into vinegar and it's actually quite nice - too strong a flavor to use as salad dressing but it does quite well in marinades. Plus it's a good story! If you have a local Buy Nothing or freecycle group there is doubtlessly someone local to you who would be *thrilled* to have the chance to experiment with making vinegar, liqueurs, etc., from the stuff you don't like. If you add enough fruit and sugar to cheap liquor you can usually render it palatable.

Also, whiskey collecting is A Thing, there are dealers who will help you with assessing the worth of the unopened bottles, e.g. https://www.thewhiskyexchange.com/wanted (first one I googled).

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 03:05 am (UTC)
pie: (Default)
From: [personal profile] pie
It may be the sort of thing that is technically illegal but not often enforced, especially if you're selling to a private individual. UK valuations should hopefully be enough to tell you if it's worth your time to figure it out.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 03:56 am (UTC)
m_danson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] m_danson
Netflix has a documentary on a wine resale scam. (I enjoyed it.) That suggests that wine resale is possible and a possible reason (maybe) for an uptick in enforcement.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/a-true-crime-documentary-about-the-con-that-shook-the-world-of-wine

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 07:51 pm (UTC)
jducoeur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jducoeur
Just one data point on the lines of "illegal but mostly unenforced": when Jane and I bought CA wines and had them shipped to MA (many years ago), the senders carefully labeled it as "olive oil", and nobody apparently blinked at it...

Whiskeys

Date: 2017-04-03 06:55 am (UTC)
lsanderson: (Default)
From: [personal profile] lsanderson
0) Hard liquor should be safe to drink.

1) Hard liquor should be about as good as it ever was if it was tightly capped and not obviously evaporated. Opened Dubonnet and the Soave are probably toast. They'll either have oxidized or the wine will have turned to vinegar.

1a) Hard liquor is not improved by age. Great wine is, but Soave ain't great wine.

2) I doubt it's worth a great deal. EBay or Google should give you a hint if it is. Collectors and movie prop buyers?

2a) In the US it would depend on the laws of your state. Wine collections are usually sold through an agent with a liquor license, or at least I think that's how it is done. I have no clue about how it's done in England. I'd guess full sealed bottles for auction. Collectors and movie props would want bright labels and boxes and either full sealed bottles or empty.

2b) Oh yes.

From the looks of it, you ain't got no 200 year old cognac here. All the whiskeys look like blends, with Chevas Regal and Crown Royale being the top of your crop. If you're used to single malt scotch, they're pretty tame beasts.

Wine from this period may well have lead foil wrapping the top of the bottle. Actual decanters from the period may well be leaded glass. Don't drink liquor that has been stored in leaded glass and make sure you clean the top of the wine bottle if it has lead foil. A look at our current orange leader shows you what too much lead can do.. ;-)
Edited Date: 2017-04-04 12:29 am (UTC)

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 02:31 pm (UTC)
paradoox: (Default)
From: [personal profile] paradoox
If the bottles are unopened, especially whiskies, they might be worth something. Skinner in Boston will sometimes sell them depending on condition. I have the email for someone at Skinner but you can probably google him - Joe Hyman - or contact him via http://www.skinnerinc.com/about/specialists/joseph-hyman/. They recently sold lots of about 6 VO, Crown Royal Etc. from the 60s-70s and they went for about $200-$300 per lot. I found this because I had a couple of old bottles of VO and CC from my parents and wound up opening them (and liking them) and talking to my contact at a liquor store. Old Bourbon or Good Scotch is probably worth more. While no whisky is probably improved by age, it was different back then and in some ways better. So, some people prefer it.

If the bottles are open, they are probably best just drunk. I would say any of the whiskies are safe to drink unless your aunt adulterated them. If it is a liqueur, it has probably gone off and is best poured out.

Wine is probably more complicated. If it is a really high end wine from a legendary year and stored well it might be worth a lot. For example last I checked BV Private Reserve Cabernet from 1958 was going for over $500 per bottle. Some old dessert wines also age well if stored well. The chance of you having any of something similar is small. Again if the bottles are sealed they are probably safe to try but I suspect most will have turned to vinegar.

Even old empty bottles might be worth something. Those are legal to sell. Ebay may or may not allow that currently.

More specific answers:

• A 750ml bottle of Folonari Soavi (wine).
It's turned. Unless the bottle is particularly interesting, pour it out and recycle the bottle.
• A nip from which the front and back labels, if any, had fallen off, but the tax stamp (maybe not authentic? but intack) has printed on it, on the cap, "Johnny Walker Scotch".
Might be interesting to a collector.
• A nip of Southern Comfort with intact tax stamp.
50ml or imperial measure. If imperial, it might be interesting to a collector.
• A nip of Fleischmann's Whiskey with intact tax stamp.
If imperial, it might be interesting to a collector.
• A fifth of Chivas Regal with intact tax stamp and original gift box.
Might be worth a small amount ($25-$50) to a collector; more if very old (50s or earlier).
• One litre of Dewar's White Label, no tax stamp, in gift box.
OK to drink, but most useful in giving to someone who likes Dewars.
• Three nips of J&B, two with intact tax stamps, and one with the tax stamp detached on one side, but all unopened.
If imperial, it might be interesting to a collector.
• A fifth of J&B with intact tax stamp.
Might be worth a small amount ($25-$50) to a collector; more if very old (50s or earlier).

Bottom line - Unless it is a Single Malt Scotch or a Bourbon (or a very fancy bottle) it probably has to be pre-metric to worth doing anything except drinking.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-03 07:58 pm (UTC)
jducoeur: (Default)
From: [personal profile] jducoeur
Laphroaig, at least until they invent something peatier.

Sometime, I must have you over and expose you to the 5-year-old Caol Ila I picked up in Edinburgh a couple of years ago -- when I told the girl behind the counter that I liked peat, her eyes lit up and she said, "Let me give you a taste of this".

Crazy-intense to begin with, and young enough to not have mellowed at *all*. First scotch I've encountered that is really too peaty/smoky for me to completely enjoy, but it makes a lovely mixer...

(no subject)

Date: 2017-04-13 09:33 pm (UTC)
brooksmoses: (Default)
From: [personal profile] brooksmoses
As a random datapoint, I just came across this auction for an old sealed screwtop of "Garrett's Virginia Dare American Red Wide" and thought of you. I cannot even imagine what the quality of that particular bottle of wine might be.

(no subject)

Date: 2017-10-02 11:39 pm (UTC)
From: (Anonymous)
Hello! Do you have a bitcoin wallet or something where I can provide an anonymous donation? I do not want to go through Patreon. Thanks.

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