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Comments on Defining a explicit function, without axiom of choice, that is not Lebesgue integrable on any interval?

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Defining a explicit function, without axiom of choice, that is not Lebesgue integrable on any interval?

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Context: This example of an everywhere surjective $f:\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$, whose graph has zero Hausdorff measure in its dimension (i.e., the measure is defined on the Borel $\sigma$-algebra), disproves the claim $\left.f\right|_{(c,d)}$ has an undefined expected value.

Edit 1: The title does not match Question 1 at the bottom of this post. To see an answer to the title, see the following. For clarfications on Question 1, see the following (Edit 2).


To change this incorrect assumption, replace $f$ with the function $\mathcal{G}:\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$. Let $\lambda(\cdot)$ be the Lebesgue measure defined on the Borel $\sigma$-algebra.

We want $\mathcal{G}$ to be similar to $f$ in the context, except $\mathcal{G}$ is non-Lebesgue integrable on any interval.

Edit 2: We wish to define an everywhere surjective function (without axiom of choice) whose Lebesgue measure is undefined on any interval

Question 1: How do we define an explicit $\mathcal{G}:\mathbb{R}\to\mathbb{R}$ (without axiom of choice) that satisfies two properties,

  1. The restriction of $\mathcal{G}$ to any interval has infinite area both above and below the $x$-axis.
  2. For all $a\lt b$ and $c \lt d$ real numbers, the set $\{x \in (a,b):\mathcal{G}(x) \in (c,d)\}$ has a positive Lebesgue measure?
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1 comment thread

Suggestions for clarification (4 comments)
Suggestions for clarification
clemens‭ wrote 9 days ago

I'm afraid I don't understand this question; what relation, for instance does your Question 1 have to the title of the question?

Also, I was about to ask how an "example" of a function $f$ is supposed to "disprove the claim" that $f_{(c,d)}$ has undefined expected value. But after rereading the question twice I finally see what you're saying: something along the lines of "I'd thought that a certain example of an everywhere surjective function $\mathbb{R} → \mathbb{R}$ was non-Lebesgue-integrable on every interval. It turns out that this is not true; so, I'd like to know if there still exist non-Lebesgue-integrable functions not involving choice".

Perhaps clarify this? Usually (this is called the "illusion of transparency") things are much more clear to the poster than to the reader (even after the poster takes the illusion of transparency into account); I expect other people reading this will have similar difficulties understanding your "Context".

bharathk98‭ wrote 8 days ago · edited 8 days ago

I emailed a PhD student using this link. In the previous question on $f_{(c,d)}$ (i.e., an everywhere surjective function with zero Hausdorff measure in its dimension). The PhD student agreed the function can have a defined mean.

Thus, I asked the PhD student if he could find a similar function, where the expected value is undefined. He gave the following answer.

I assumed I should ask a question to get his answer checked and he states there was nothing wrong with the question, so I decided to leave the post alone.

clemens‭ wrote 8 days ago · edited 8 days ago

Good question. As I'm very new here I do not know precisely what the customs are about modifying questions after they are answered. In StackExchange I think it is discouraged: see https://math.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/20103/is-that-ok-to-modify-a-question-significantly . But it would be good to ask in Meta what to do and wait for a response (I believe Peter Taylor is in charge of such things currently).

It's a bit complicated because it looks to me as though both of your questions (the non-Lebesgue-integrable question and your Question 1) are somehow interrelated: you want the $\mathcal{G}$ in Question 1 to be non-Lebesgue-integrable which I think in $ZF+AD$ is impossible.

(By the way I'd also recommend asking on Meta about the "function space" series of questions. It sounds quite interesting and I can think of some plausible avenues of attack (e.g. forcing). But to be very candid it is not especially readable in the way it's currently organized.)

bharathk98‭ wrote 7 days ago · edited 7 days ago

I asked the question on Meta.