TRANSCRIPT:
Alli Torban: Hey, you’re listening to episode 96 of Data Viz Today. I’m Alli Torban, an information designer and author of Chart Spark, and this show is here to help you become a more effective and creative information designer. Thanks for joining me!
Have you ever heard someone ask a dataviz expert a question, and they answer, “well, it depends…” and you’re like, depends on what?!
I’ve felt like that a lot, and I realized that I have a perfect platform to unearth some of those clarifying questions that a dataviz expert might ask as they navigate a challenge.
It reminds me of taking my kids to the doctor. When they were babies, I had no clue what information I should have ready or what the doctor might need to know. But as they got older and we had more visits, I started to pick up on the common follow-up questions doctors always ask. Now, when something comes up at home, I can ask myself those same triage questions to figure out what steps to take next.
The same principle applies in the dataviz field. The more you hear the kinds of questions experts ask to dig deeper and clarify, the more you can apply that same critical thinking to your own work, and take your expertise to the next level.
So, to do this, I created a game called Next Question where my guest and I will present each other with little scenarios or challenges, and we have to say what our next question would be to try to clarify the situation. I hope that by hearing what we’d ask next, you’ll be able to add some new questions to your toolbox. Now, my very first partner to play this new game is the one and only Kat Greenbrook!
Kat is a Data Storyteller based in New Zealand. She consults, keynotes, and facilitates workshops about data storytelling, and published her first book last year called The Data Storyteller’s Handbook.
Kat and I actually have the same book birthday, Chart Spark was released on Dec 5th 2023 as well, so before we get to the Next Question game, Kat and I share what most surprised us about this past year releasing a new book….
Kat Greenbrook:
There were a lot of things that were harder than I thought. But the biggest thing for me in terms of promotion and what came after the book being published was actually getting people to write reviews. It's just been, I had such high expectations and think maybe naive expectations about how interested people would be to do that. <Laugh> and I, I remember going out, 'cause I had a little marketing team of, of beta readers, and I said, oh, my goal for the first week of launch is to have 20 reviews on Amazon <laugh>. I think I've got 30 and it's, and it's been a year <laugh>. So just, it's just unrealistic expectations I think from the start. But just, it's, it's means so much to an author, for someone to leave a review. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. But I completely understand that not everyone has the time to, to do that. So anyone that does leave a review, I'm just, I'm so grateful for Yeah,
Alli Torban:
I agree. Something for me too is just how much of a marathon it is to promote the book for an entire year. You know, life happens and you just keep thinking, oh, I gotta keep talking about the book. Aren't people tired of hearing me <laugh> talk about the book <laugh>.
Kat Greenbrook:
Absolutely. You, there's only so many ways you can almost reframe the same thing.
Alli Torban:
It is, it does feel like I'm, I'm starting to become redundant, so I didn't feel like that. I felt like that was really tough for me this past year was having to, to, to run the marathon of promotion. Was there something that was a surprising, in a good way, like a benefit or idea opportunity that came out this year that you weren't really expecting?
Kat Greenbrook:
I have been surprised about just how far the book's gone. I think one of my initial goals was to expand my brand outside of New Zealand. And that's definitely happened, which is great because I, my networks just got very, very global. But one of the, the amazing opportunities that I've had this year is I was invited to speak at a conference in Georgia, so Georgia, the country, not Georgia. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, the state <laugh>. And it's just nice to have those opportunities that are really outside my home base. And just being able to talk to people who I would've never probably had the opportunity to be in front of if I hadn't written the book. What about you?
Alli Torban:
Or something I didn't expect was that people would reflect back to me some of the ideas in the book in their own ways and give me more ideas of future things that I can do. Like in my book, there's a lot of prompts and exercises to do with for yourself, like as I'm brainstorming, you know, myself and taking notes, but people were like, oh, these would work just as well or better in a small group setting. I was like, oh, I can't believe I didn't even add that to the book about how in a team setting this would work really, really well and what other prompts and activities can I create that are more conducive for team setting. So I kind of feel like that's, that was, that was a new direction and idea that other people reflected back to me that I didn't even think would be a benefit of a book is having some people giving you more ideas. <Laugh>,
Kat Greenbrook:
It's awesome. It it almost shapes the next book, doesn't it? Yes.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. You see what parts resonate with people. People can you great ideas and yeah, it's, it's a nice, like, evolution. It's not like the end, you release your book and that's over. Mm. It's like a, it's a, it's a constantly moving wheel of, of new ideas and opportunities. All right, so Ka is our inaugural member of the new game <laugh> that I we're gonna play called Next Question. So Kat and I are gonna go back and forth asking each other these questions and we will talk through what we're thinking about when we have, we are presented with a challenge like this, and then we can talk about it and hopefully get to the point where we can have like maybe one succinct question we would ask as our next question. Does that sound good, Kat?
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah, that sounds great. Bring it on.
Alli Torban:
All right. So, all right, the first one is for Kat. And this one is, let's say you have a stakeholder and a stakeholder has a different idea about the main takeaway of this data story than you do. What's the next question you'd ask to what? To understand? What's driving their perspective?
Kat Greenbrook:
Alright, so I think this has maybe two parts to it. Firstly, there's the analysis part and then there's the communication or the data storytelling part. And there may be conflicting views in either one of those parts. And so the first step I think is to clarify is that the analysis that we differ opinion on? Or is it the way in which we communicate that? And so part the first one is to understand how we think or understand the analysis because if we differ on that, then obviously we're going to be communicating that differently,
Alli Torban:
Right? Yeah. Did we, did, are we arguing about like what the actual finding was? Or do we agree on that?
Kat Greenbrook:
Exactly. So I think clarifying those key takeaways first would be, would be the, the next logical question to ask. If those key takeaways are, we're in agreement on that, then it's just a difference in how we communicate those, those takeaways. So I think the question following that would be about our audience. So are we trying to influence our audience to do something like a specific action? Or are we trying to get them to understand something about the data? Because if those two things are different, then the way that we communicate it will be different,
Alli Torban:
Right? Yeah. I like that you tie it back to the audience because what are you guys really arguing about if you know the, you're losing sight of the audience, it's more of an ego thing, right? Well instead of that, let's focus on the audience and how we can best serve them.
Kat Greenbrook:
It's, it's, a lot of the time, it's an ego thing and it, we do have to check ourselves and because it does always come down to what is right for the audience. And so when we are clear on the analysis, when we are clear on our communication goals in terms of what we want our audience to do or understand, then we are just in a better place to collaborate on moving forward in terms of what we say.
Alli Torban:
Mm. That's great. Well that was a really great first
Kat Greenbrook:
Oh, good. Next
Alli Torban:
Question, <laugh>.
Kat Greenbrook:
So now is it my turn? I do I get to ask you a question
Alli Torban:
Now? You can, now you can ask me.
Kat Greenbrook:
<Laugh>. Okay. Awesome. Alright. A designer wants to get highly creative with the visuals, but you worry it might obscure the data insight that you're trying to convey. What's the next question you'd ask them to help align on the design approach?
Alli Torban:
Yeah, I really like this one because it kind of reminded me of me where <laugh> there definitely earlier on in my date of his career, I was doing, creating visuals that were a little bit too creative and it kind of derailed the project sometimes. And I feel like I've gotten better at this. So the, the thing that's the most useful when you're trying to decide, Hey, how creative should I be, is to make sure that you're really thinking about the main goal of the project. And if I were working with someone else and they were really going for it in terms of creativity, I would be very careful to start nitpicking at their idea. Because it's really tough to create something that's out of the ordinary or you're pushing the boundaries or something and you want someone to be, to remain confident in their, in their abilities and in their creativity.
Alli Torban:
So I wouldn't wanna squish it at all, but I would point back to the main goal. So I would say something like, well, since the main goal of the project is to X, is there a particular design element here that you feel like really serves the goal? And then they might start saying things like, oh, you know, the color palette is really serving this main goal. Or you see how I highlighted this main thing here? And then we can start talking about that and being like, oh, well, how could we bring that more to the forefront and see if maybe they can come to the solution that, oh, this needs to be a little more simple, or this needs to do this in service of the goal. So it's kind of the same thing that you were talking about in the first one where, you know, going back to the audience, going back to the main goal and aligning it that would be where I try to drive the conversation. So my next, the next question would probably be, since the goal of the project is to X, what design element do you think really contributes to that goal?
Kat Greenbrook:
And I love how you don't wanna squash their creativity. I think that's so important when you are giving feedback, because you're right, people can start to shut down when you Yeah. When you do that and getting or giving them the opportunity to get there themselves can just help someone to grow in that space. I think that's great.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. You want them to be positive and feel like they're growing rather than you're the person coming in and squishing their ideas. <Laugh>. That's no fun. <Laugh>. Okay, next one. This is fun. All right, so next one for Kat is, let's say a senior executive suggests an approach that you think might confuse your audience. What's the next question you'd ask to diplomatically understand their reasoning? I,
Kat Greenbrook:
This one I think again comes back to obviously the audience. And sometimes in this situation, all that stakeholder needs or all that senior exec needs is a reminder of who that audience is. A lot of the time we get really carried away in terms of thinking about the best way to communicate because we think about what we would like to receive in terms of the, of our communication. And that doesn't necessarily mean that our audience want to be communicated with in that way. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So sometimes all it takes is a reminder of who our audience is and getting back on track if they still think that this particular way is the best way for this audience. I think my next question would be, how do you think the audience would respond to this approach? Because then at least it gets them to almost become the audience and think about how they would like to receive it from, from that position.
Kat Greenbrook:
And if, if they think still that this is a great, great way to do it, then you could start to, instead of saying, no, that's not the right way. Because who am I to tell someone that? That's, that's not my place. I don't think I could ask questions like, well, alright, let's, let's imagine that we're going with this approach. How could we simplify it so it's really, really easy for our audience? 'cause Then it's still, we're serving our audience. We are not serving ourselves in any way. We're trying to do everything we can to make it easier for them.
Alli Torban:
Mm. I really like the question of getting them to say how they think someone else will react, because then it'll be interest. It would be interesting to see are they talking about feelings? Are they talking about actions? And then maybe that will give you a little bit of insight into their perspective because maybe they're only talking about actions. And then you can be like, well, did you consider that maybe, you know, this would make someone feel this particular way? And that question kind of teases that out.
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah. And feelings are so important in the way that we communicate as well. We've gotta remember that we are all very emo beings and how we make someone feel with our data communication impacts how they receive it in terms of what they do next.
Alli Torban:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I totally agree. I think we sometimes we like to think that we're very non-emotional. I only listen to the data, but it's it's not true. It's not true. Yeah, it's true. We're emotionally beings. <Laugh>.
Kat Greenbrook:
We are. We're alright. So it's my turn. Yes. Okay. Question four. Ellie, you are completely stuck on where to start with a new data story. What's the next question you'd ask yourself or someone else to spark ideas?
Alli Torban:
Yes. The being stuck is tough, especially if you're in a room <laugh> and you're all just kind of staring at each other and it feels like you've been going in circles. And in this case I like to think about we just need more inputs. You know, what, what exactly are we stuck on? Do, are we kind of going in circles about the color and like nobody has ideas about the color. Nobody has ideas about this chart type. We don't know how to sequence this story. Those kinds of things. Think first, think about like what you're stuck on as specific as you can be, the better. And then think about where can I get some more inputs for this particular thing that we're stuck on. So like, let's say color, you know, we really don't know where we're going with color. Go have everyone go and think through, find examples like other data visualizations or you know, things in other fields like art or something.
Alli Torban:
Find some examples where you think these colors just really strike you for a particular reason. And then what I would do is go through my X-ray exercise from my book where I take, I look at a piece of inspiration and then X stands for excited. What got me excited about it. R is rules. How is this following the rules, like date of his best practices A is on anarchy. How is this like throwing out the rules? And then u how might you use this in the future? And everybody can go out and like x-ray a bunch of things and then come back and then you'll have like a bunch of fresh inputs of how other people have solved that particular problem in the past. So I think the question here would be like what, what can we X-ray <laugh> that will give us some really some more and specific inputs to use for this project?
Kat Greenbrook:
I love that. And I've gotta say, I have used your X-ray approach many times. Oh yeah. I think it's so, oh, that's great. It's so great. And it's just a nice way to capture your learnings and to do a little bit of self study because mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> it is something that you could just pick up and do. It doesn't take much of your time, but you gain so much insight from just being able to look at something with a heavily, a little bit more structure around what you take from it. I think it's, it's a great little, little framework.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. And you can do it just quickly in your head too. You don't have to write it down. You don't have to put it in a spreadsheet. <Laugh>. It doesn't have to be fancy.
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah. It's awesome.
Alli Torban:
All right, next one. For Kat, two team members are brain in a brainstorming session and their ideas are clashing. What's the next question you'd ask to kind of guide them towards a more productive conversation or compromise?
Kat Greenbrook:
I think I'm, I'm beginning to sound like a broken record, but part of it is pulling back to why we're communicating, who we're communicating to. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, if that's still the same, then you have to give people the opportunity to have a little bit of almost empathy for each other in terms of, I think the question I would ask is, what is one thing that you like about the other's approach?
Alli Torban:
Oh.
Kat Greenbrook:
'Cause Instead of like nitpicking on why, why each one is going to go wrong. Yeah. You force people to see the positive and you force people to say, oh, well I really like that about yours. And then they could say, well, I like that about yours. And then you've got a starting point. You've got someone something that you can say, okay, well if we combined both of those things, we can create something new. And maybe that's the start of a compromise, you know?
Alli Torban:
Yeah. I love that. And it kind of gets everybody out of their defensive posture too, because when you're arguing back and forth, it's like, this is why, this is why this is why, you know, defending your idea, but once you kind of get outta that posture, you then you can kind of come together.
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah. And defensive mode is so easy to go into when there's design involved. And I think if you can learn and it's really, really hard to do, if you can learn to not be defensive or not take anything personally in terms of the design work you do, you're going to go so much further in this field.
Alli Torban:
Yeah, I agree. And one trick that I have started doing that has worked really well is, you know, someone is giving you feedback that's like not rosy just breathing first, which sounds really dumb, but like, instead of thinking like, forming my attack and my thoughts and my defense, just thinking about breathing like <laugh> and relaxing the body. Because you can feel your body like tensing as someone is criticizing your idea. And like, that's just not a way to get to a, a compromise or having a productive discussion. So I just think about like really breathing in and not thinking about my response. <Laugh>,
Kat Greenbrook:
Take three seconds. Yep. Love it. <Laugh>. Alright, my question. Your brainstorming session has stalled and ideas are feeling unin uninspired. What's the next question you'd ask the group to revive the creative energy?
Alli Torban:
Yeah, this one is very common, right? Like, even, even if you're just brainstorming yourself, you're sitting at the, your desk and you're kind of just like spinning your wheels again. I like the kind of like the idea before with the x-ray, you know, getting more inputs is great, but it could be that you just need a break. Like figuring out what, what you can do to take a break. So I would probably, my next question would be like, what do you want for lunch? Like, let's just get outta here and think about something else for a little bit. Because sometimes we feel like we're a little over confident in how long we can brainstorm or work on something. I mean, for me it's like maybe an hour, hour and a half. Mm-Hmm <affirmative>. And then I really, my brain just needs a break. I need to get outside.
Alli Torban:
I need to eat something. I need to, you know, get some sun on my face, <laugh>, get some fresh air, do something else. So taking a break would be my number one thing that I would, would suggest and offer to people. And another thing I might think about is you might be overcomplicating it. You know, if you're kind of stalling out on, on ideas, sometimes that means that you're really just trying to overcomplicate things. So one thing that I have started asking myself is, what would this look like if it were easy? Or what would this look like if it were simple? Or what would this look like if it was due right now? Like, what would I do <laugh>? And it just completely reframes it. And you're like, all right, forget about all that stuff we were just talking about. Like, what do I actually need to do to get this out the door? And then that might simplify things enough for you where you're like, okay, bing, bang, boom, let's do this. But taking a break might also help too.
Kat Greenbrook:
I, I agree. Taking a break, is it, it's worked for me and, and I continue to do it and I actually force myself to do that when I'm sitting in front of my computer and I'm just feeling stuck. Yeah. I either go out for a walk or it's funny or I have a shower and it could be like one in the afternoon, but having a shower just kind of, it just makes you not think about anything. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And sometimes those ideas just kind of pop into your head when, when you're not thinking about them. And just creating that new environment where you can be removed from what it is that you are struggling with can actually help you solve that. So I think that's, that's really important.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. I think the shower thing, the thing about it is that I had never thought of before is that where else are you in a place where you really cannot even grab your phone to distract yourself? And so like shower nowadays, it's almost like the shower's the only place
Kat Greenbrook:
<Laugh>.
Alli Torban:
I feel like that's why it works a lot. <Laugh>.
Kat Greenbrook:
I haven't thought about it in that way. <Laugh>.
Alli Torban:
Okay. Let's see. It is my turn. Okay. So let's say a creative visualization you love was not very well received by your client. What's the next question you'd ask the team to or your client to understand why it's just not resonating?
Kat Greenbrook:
This has actually happened to me. <Laugh>.
Alli Torban:
Mm-Hmm.
Kat Greenbrook:
<Affirmative>. So I was, I had designed a connected scatterplot for my clients and for anyone who knows what a connected scatterplot is, it is a a scatterplot graph and then you add the time variable so you connect the dots based on when they happened or the order that they happened in. And I thought it was amazing for the data that I had been given. And I just thought it was such a clever way for me to do this. And my client was going to love it. And I sent it through and it was just silence. Didn't, didn't get any, didn't get any feedback. And, and then we had a, we had a meeting just to, to talk about it and they were just a little bit, you could tell that it didn't quite land well. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And so instead of just beating around the bush sometimes I think the best you can, you think you can do in this situation is just state, state what people are thinking date the obvious. And I just said, what is it that you don't like about it? Because I knew that they didn't like it. Yeah. So just, there's no point in trying to Yeah, just, just say it. And it was actually really, really helpful. 'cause It's not that I said it in a defensive way. And I think that goes back to what we were saying before about you can't be defensive on this. Yeah. You have to approach it with curiosity. And I think that comes across in how you, how you talk about it. Yeah. But
Kat Greenbrook:
Their response was that they just didn't understand it. And it came all came down to the chart type. And I have since then realized that these charts are extremely hard for people to understand if they're not familiar with them. Yeah. And so there was no point in me trying to make it easier for them to understand that particular chart. It was a very easy decision for me to make. Right. That's it. Scraped. Let's do something else. <Laugh>.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. Yeah. And just the way that you say it too, like you said, like tone is so important. Like, I'm like, well what don't you like about it? Like, that's not gonna make you open up <laugh>.
Kat Greenbrook:
No,
Alli Torban:
But I'm like, I am on your team. Like I really want this to work for you. Like what about this isn't working? That totally sounds completely different. And it's asking the exact same thing. Yeah.
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah. So important. Alright, my turn. Okay. You're asked to make it compelling, but what's the only, but that's the only guidance that has been provided. So what's the next question you'd ask them to get more clarity on the project's goal? Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. I'm interested in your answer, <laugh>.
Alli Torban:
I know. Isn't that funny though? Like you probably have heard the word compelling thrown a lot. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> more around more recently. I feel like everybody wants I everything to be compelling. Be compell me. Like the thing, the first thing I like to ask is, what does compelling mean to you? Because pretty much any adjective really can mean so many different things to other people, to each person. So like, if I say make it beautiful, that's gonna look different for me than it is for you. Make these colors harmonious, you know, that's gonna be different for me than it is for you. So first I like to, you know, hang on, the, the adjective that they, that they gave me. So compelling. It could be anything, whatever they say it is. Can you show me some examples of visualizations that you found compelling or the stakeholder that you were presenting to has found compelling?
Alli Torban:
Just like one or two. Just, I need a couple. And then if you can even go even further, like you can even x-ray it again and being like, what particular things are getting you excited about this? What particular things do you think are really working here? And people will say things like, oh, I really like the color palette, or the annotations were clever. Or, I used like how they used icons here. A lot of times the people we work with aren't designers, obviously that's why they hired you. But, and they're not used to seeing the details of either graphic design or data visualizations. So if you can just have them pick things out in the wild that they liked, then you can help them analyze it and pick out those particular things that then you can use in your work. So I think my question would be, can you show me some examples of visualizations that you have found compelling, <laugh>? And then we can all settle on a definition and then go from there. <Laugh>.
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah. That's great because you're all, you are all then speaking the same language, aren't you? Yeah. And you're right with those adjectives that get thrown around, they mean different things to different people and being clear on what they mean to you and your audience. So important.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. Define it first. Get on the same page. Mm-Hmm,
Kat Greenbrook:
<Affirmative>.
Alli Torban:
All right. Next one. Let's say mid project, a brand new stakeholder comes in to your project and starts making some major change requests. What's the next question you'd ask this new stakeholder to try to minimize disruption and just like align expectations on the project?
Kat Greenbrook:
First of all, I think before, before you start asking anything of them, you need to inform them of what you are currently doing in terms of your current understanding of their goals and what you're trying to achieve. Because
Kat Greenbrook:
If you can reiterate the original goals and then what you're doing in order to meet those original goals, they, they might be fine and leave you alone. That's true. So, but if, if they still have change requests, then you can ask if anything about the initial goals has changed in order for that to feed down into what you do. Because it's, it comes back to what you do. You said before in terms of we're all on the same page, we're all trying to achieve the same thing. Yeah. And if what we're currently doing in terms of visualization or storytelling is not working for those goals, maybe because those goals have changed, then absolutely we need to have discussion around that. But sometimes I think we can get into this, this trap almost of talking about the detail of the project or the detail of the story without going back to those high initial goals. Mm-Hmm. And if something in that high initial goal has changed, of course it's going to change the detail, but we don't wanna get trapped talking about that detail if, if our goals are different or if they're not aligned.
Alli Torban:
Yeah, that's true. It, I like the point of just kind of giving them a rundown of all the work that you have done already. Because like you said, like maybe they either didn't realize all that stuff had been happening already or they are already on board with all those details. They just didn't know where they came from. Oh yeah. If that's our goal, then yeah, full steam ahead, <laugh>, keep going. But if you are, if you are changing things up, it's also important to kind of articulate where you are in the project. It's like, well this was, you know, we've done all this work already and we were kind of winding down and the project is supposed to be due on this date. If we were to integrate this new solution, the the deadline is gonna have to move out or it's gonna be impacted like this. And then they might be like, Hmm, nevermind. Don't do that <laugh>.
Kat Greenbrook:
And it's about giving them the agency, isn't it? They have to feel like they are, they have some control over what is happening rather than it just happening to them and them being out of the loop. So sometimes when you have a new stakeholder come in, they just need to feel like they have some agency over what's happening. And if you can give them that without changing what you're doing, that's great. Alright. Now question. A client gives you a large data set with little direction on what they want. What's the next question you'd ask to identify a clear starting point for the story?
Alli Torban:
Yeah. This, this one is tough. Especially when you have a large data set and some, no one really gives you any direction. You know, you could just, you could analyze it till the cows come home, you know, <laugh>, is that a se is that a saying In New Zealand? Yes.
Kat Greenbrook:
They see it is <laugh>. Okay. I dunno where it comes from. I don't know. I don't Yeah. <Laugh>
Alli Torban:
Everywhere. There's cows I guess. Yeah. Yeah. You can analyze it till the cows come home. So like, don't waste your time. I, I, before I even look at anything, I really want to know the goals and everything, but the main thing that I, a, the, the thing that would really help me is if I know if there's some sort of particular action or a decision that needs to be made after someone sees the visual, so you got a big data set and they're like, Hey, go for it. Well, what decision is the reader gonna have to make after they see this graphic? 'cause Then I can start analyzing like, oh, okay, they're looking at this variable and they need to see an average, and I need context for that and all that, but I really don't know where else to go if if I don't know what the main goal is and what action or decision the reader is gonna have to make from it. Because a lot of times people don't think about that, and then you analyze the data and then you just end up showing a bunch of fun tidbits to people like, oh, there's an outlier. And then they're like, okay. And they forget it two seconds later because you weren't really coming at it from a perspective of, this person needs to see this and take an action or make a decision.
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah, absolutely. An audience is so important, but I think stakeholders are also important. So in terms of my answering that question, I think it would be acknowledging their part in this as well in terms of what are they hoping that I find from this analysis and what questions do they want answered? Because it's never going to necessarily make it to the audience if the stakeholders aren't on board.
Alli Torban:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. Gotta see what, what their, what their goals are Mm-Hmm. What they think, what they think might, might, this visualization or the data might show. That, that definitely in opens up a can of worms. And I really love how you talk about it in your book where the stakeholder, their desires of what the data should say should not be what, what's the visual that you show? It's like, what's something about cherries?
Kat Greenbrook:
Isn't it cherry picking? Cherry picking the data. Yeah. <laugh>,
Alli Torban:
Can you describe that real quick?
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah. So a lot of the time we have ideas about what the narrative is going to say, what the story's gonna be, and that's fine. But as long as you separate that from the analytics process. So you go into the analytics process with certain questions that maybe you want answered, but you are open to whatever the data is going to say. The problem is when you take that preconceived narrative and then you find data to fit that narrative. Mm mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And, and that's, that's not very ethical in terms of how a data story should be put together. It should be driven by the analysis rather than starting with a preconceived narrative.
Alli Torban:
Mm mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So you, it is good to guide, guide your analysis if you have some sort of hunch or you think that the data is showing this, it can kind of guide it, but just always stay open to other possibilities, right?
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Alli Torban:
All right. Let's see. Next one. All right, you're crafting a data story, but don't know who will be the, in the audience. What's the next question you'd ask to better gauge who's in the audience and what their needs are?
Kat Greenbrook:
This is a very common situation. Yeah. Especially when you have an audience that's very general and it could be made up of different sub audiences or different people with different needs. It can be very hard to put together something that's going to resonate with everyone. So I think part of the starting point here is getting really clear on who needs to hear this data story, because they're the people that you should be targeting. And if the audience is made up of other people, then that's fine, but you want it to resonate with the people that need to hear it. So we need to get really clear on who our priority audience is and then understand them a little bit more so we can tailor our message. So if we're have an audience, we understand we're targeting this particular audience, this is, this is the people that are important, we need to think about, okay, what is the current level of understanding of the data that we are communicating?
Kat Greenbrook:
We need to talk and communicate at that level, because if we get too, too detailed or complex in the way in which we talk about the data, we're gonna lose them. Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. So we need to understand what do they currently know and build on that. How, how do they like to be communicated? Do they prefer things in a more summarized format or are they detailed people? We need to tailor our communication to fit their communication preference. We have to realize that it's not about our communication preferences, it's about what do our audience prefer? What do they need in order for them to understand our message? So part of it is identifying who is the primary or priority audience in this case? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>. And then asking those clarity questions about how, how they would prefer to be communicated with.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. I remember reading that question in your book and just thinking, that sounds so simple, but I don't think I've ever thought about it like that. Like how do they like to be communicated with, I mean, doesn't that sound so simple? But it's, it, it does makes me think, yeah. How do they like to be communicated with <laugh>? Like, you just never really think about it. Like you might think, oh, this person you know this medium works best for the situation. I kind of feel like that's usually where people are coming from. Like, this is a presentation, so I'm gonna make slides. They don't really think, well, how does the CEO like to be communicated with? It could be that they like to be communicated to by just sitting next to them and talking to them. And then you don't have to create any kind of slides. So just thinking how do they like to be communicated with is a really smart question.
Kat Greenbrook:
And it, it helps, it helps whatever you create resonate more with who you're talking to. It helps engage them more If you understand their communication preferences and say they're, they prefer things in a more summarized format, you can still do the presentation, but your slides would be kept very, very simple. You wouldn't be putting bullet point, bullet point, bullet point on your slides if your audience prefers things in summarized formats. But that might change if your audience wants things in a little bit more detail. Or you might say, Hey, this is a summary presentation, but I've included a lot more detail in this report, which I'll send out afterwards. So you're just catering to your audience's needs in that situation.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. Making sure the primary audience gets what their needs, gets what they need, and then thinking about the tertiary or secondary and tertiary audiences and being like, how can I kind of like put some breadcrumbs in there so they're satisfied too. <Laugh>.
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah. And, and it's hard. It's, it really is. It's hard trying to, to communicate to different audience groups.
Alli Torban:
It's not easy.
Kat Greenbrook:
Alright. Question for you, you have multiple visualization options for the same data each with a different emphasis. What's the next question you'd ask to determine the most effective choice?
Alli Torban:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I come across this a lot because I do like to experiment with different chart types because you never really know what something's gonna look like until you put it in that format. So I'll open up Tableau and I'll like maybe if it's a proportion that I'm trying to show, like I'll show it in a pie chart and then a tree map and then maybe a waffle chart and you don't really know which one is gonna look the best until you actually do it usually. So I like to experiment a lot. And when I'm seeing a bunch of options and they're all kind of have their own strengths and weaknesses, I, I like to go back to make sure, remind myself of the main goal of the graphic and the audience and thinking about does this particular chart type emphasize the main goals of best?
Alli Torban:
And sometimes one answer is really clear, but a lot of times you have to go and test it. Hmm. So if there are a couple different options that I think, oh, these are kind of all similar, they do, they do all satisfy the main goal, then I might be thinking, okay, well who could I test this on? This might be the next question that I ask is, who can I test this on to to get a better idea of which one is hitting the Mark A. Little bit better? So I'm thinking of different people, either the stakeholders or kind of representative people in my audience or you know, like just someone in my family. If if I'm just trying to test it at a very basic level, like is this even understandable to anybody <laugh>? Then I might just ask someone in my family like, what are you taking away from this graphic, from this graphic, this graphic? And then seeing which one seems to, seems to be the most clear. If that's, if that's my main goal.
Kat Greenbrook:
I love that idea of testing it on your family. And I think testing it on people who aren't necessarily in the data space or don't have knowledge about this particular data set that you're visualizing, it can be really powerful because they just bring such a different lens to it and have, have a different view on it that makes you get rid of some of that jargon or that complexity or that, or adds some context that maybe you didn't think about adding beforehand. Just gives you a different view on it, I think. I think that's a really, really good technique to do.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. The expectation of how clear it needs to be when you are showing someone that's not in that space are just so high. Like it's you, you have to be super, super clear. So I think that's why it's, it's so, it's so useful. Hmm.
Kat Greenbrook:
Alright,
Alli Torban:
So you present a data story to senior executives and you're done and the room is completely silent, <laugh>, what is the next question you'd ask to try to figure out and understand what they're thinking?
Kat Greenbrook:
Generally it is silent because what you have explained is different to the reality. Hmm. So the first question I would ask in this situation is, does this align with what you see in the business? And if it's, if it's not aligned, then what's different? What's, what am I saying that you are not seeing? And what we've gotta remember when we, when we are looking at data, when we're analyzing data, is it is just one lens of reality. And this lens can be wrong. We may have captured data, but it's not actually reflecting real life or business operations. And so we can't put all of our trust in what the data is telling us if the business is telling us something else. Mm-Hmm. So we have to be open to the fact that we could be wrong and we need to invite that feedback.
Alli Torban:
Mm-Hmm. <affirmative>. Yeah. I like the idea of seeing it, you're seeing things from different lenses. What context do you think I missed here? And someone could be like, well, I'm looking at the previous quarter numbers every day all day, and I'm seeing this or something that maybe you're not seeing usually Do you feel like with silence? So they, they are usually trying to like work out your perspective or your perspective compared to theirs perspective. They're trying to kind of resolve that.
Kat Greenbrook:
I think they're internalizing it and taking in what you see it and aligning it with what they currently already understand. And this could, could be a positive thing. They just might be taking in the information and then
Alli Torban:
Just
Kat Greenbrook:
Thinking about what they would do next. Maybe it's not good news, maybe they need to take a bit of time, but generally it's, it's because they are going through that process that something that you've said doesn't doesn't match with with what they're seeing. And they could, they could be wrong as well.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. So your question was how, how does what I said align with what you've seen?
Kat Greenbrook:
Yeah. Just making sure that, that you're both on the same page. What is different about the data that the business is not experiencing and vice versa.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. And it, there's no positive or negative connotation to that question either. You're not just assuming that they didn't like what you said. So that's, I like that.
Kat Greenbrook:
No, and you've, you've definitely just gotta be open to it. You've gotta be open to the fact that you could be wrong. Mm-Hmm.
Alli Torban:
<Affirmative>. Yeah. The ego again, <laugh>. Yeah.
Kat Greenbrook:
Amazing how often that comes into play. <Laugh>. Alright, this is, this is my last question for you, I think. Okay. A client wants a very detailed data visualization, but you know, the audience prefers simplicity. What's the next question you'd ask to find a middle ground?
Alli Torban:
Yeah, I, like you said, I kind of feel like a broken record on this, but it just emphasizes how important it is. So if you are have something very detailed and you think, ah, it needs to be more simple, really going back to figuring out what particular design elements of that graphic are really serving the main goal and the audience. And testing, again, I would pull out testing for this as well. So if someone designed something super detailed and I expressed my concern that maybe this was a little bit too detailed and we might need to be more simple for this particular audience so that X, y, and Z really shines. And if, you know, they push back and like, no, this is what we need. We're like, okay, who can we test this on? And just set up a quick test where we can see if people are being, getting confused about this visualization, are they taking away this, this this particular takeaway that we want them to.
Alli Torban:
And sometimes speed to insight is important and sometimes it's not. So sometimes having a detailed visualization and someone really needs to sit with it for a few minutes is okay maybe, maybe we don't need to optimize for speed, but we do need to make sure it is a situation where our audience has the time to invest in it and also the will or the motivation <laugh> to invest in it. And if they don't have the time or the motivation to invest in really digging into something complex, then we, you know, we're just gonna get ignored anyway. So testing it is really important. And thinking about like, the constraints. So I think my main question would be what's the main thing we want our reader to take away? And then how can we test it? And if our tests come up short, then you know, that's some evidence that maybe we should try to simplify.
Kat Greenbrook:
It's something we don't really consider, I don't think as much as maybe we should. That whole, how interested is my audience in the data that I'm presenting? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative>, if you present something with a lot of detail and they're not really that interested in diving into that detail, they're likely not going to engage.
Alli Torban:
Yeah. You're like, that's a lot.
Kat Greenbrook:
I I don't care. I don't care as though I'm not, why would I, why would I take the time to, to sit and try and understand this?
Alli Torban:
Yeah. I have found that sometimes you can kind of coax people into something that is more complex, but you do need to kind of give them something upfront, almost like like a little treat first. Like, oh, I can see some cool overall pattern that is interesting to me or gave me some sort of insight. And now I see that I have the ability to either filter down or explore more and get more detail. But you do need to give them a little something upfront, I think. Hmm.
Kat Greenbrook:
Drop the carrot. Yes.
Alli Torban:
<Laugh> or the cherry
Kat Greenbrook:
<Laugh>.
Alli Torban:
Okay. Last question. So let's say new data emerges partway through a very lengthy project that you're working on. And what's the next question that you'd ask to decide if it's even worth incorporating this new data or if you just gonna stick with your original data?
Kat Greenbrook:
From my perspective, when I'm putting a data story together, it's if you have new data, enter last minute or when, whenever you've gotta ask, does this change my story? If it changes the story, then you've got to almost go back to the beginning and maybe do some more analysis. At least revise the data story, possibly maybe scrap it all together. But that's a lot more work if the new data changes the story. If the new data doesn't change the story, then you have to weigh up is it worth revising the story or refreshing the story to include this new data? Is it worth the resources, the money, the time that it's actually gonna take to, to do that? Mm-Hmm. <Affirmative> if it's not changing the message and it comes down to, does my audience need to have that revised data included? Is it going to make a difference to them? Are they going to, is it going to be more likely that they will take whatever action I want them to take based on this new data? Or does it just not matter? So at the end of the day, it comes down to does that data story change the message or does that data change the story?
Alli Torban:
Yeah. And it could be that it, you don't have to change the whole thing and maybe you just need to add a little extra context. Like maybe you need to basically slot in a new slide, you know, in the story where you are adding a little bit more context, like, based on this new information, you know, x, y, and Z, we've learned this about this particular subgroup. Or something like that where you don't have to completely change everything, but maybe you can slot, slot something in for more context. Yeah.
Kat Greenbrook:
I think it depends on what that new data is. If that new data completely contradicts the story that you've put together, yeah, then, then you're in trouble <laugh> then you'll have to go back to the drawing board. But yeah, it could just be, as you say, just adding some, some more context can help include it.
Alli Torban:
Well that was the end of the next question Game. Thanks, Kat. That was a lot of fun. That
Kat Greenbrook:
Was fun.
Alli Torban:
Before we wrap up, I just wanted to get a sense of what you're, what you're up to next. Like, do you have any other new book ideas or like new workshops you're doing? What's, what's happening with Kat Green book in 2025?
Kat Greenbrook:
No new book ideas. Well maybe no new motivation to write to write another book. I maybe one day, but definitely not in, in the recent, recent future. I think what I'm focused on, 2025, I will be launching and on demand vision of my workshops just as a way for people to, I get a lot of queries from individuals saying, can I take, can I take one of your workshops? But at the moment, I'm currently just running these for companies internally, teams of people. So I, I wanted something that I could offer people that would give them the opportunity to individually take these workshops and take them at a time that suits them. I know being based in New Zealand that my time zone difference is, is quite hard for some people to accommodate. Mm-Hmm. So I just wanna try and make it easier for people to be able to access their information. So that for me will be a big push next year. I do have something coming up at the end of this year called the 12 Days of Christmas, which is a bit of a Christmas campaign. I've teamed up with some very amazing people in the data of this space, yourself included. And I just have a couple of giveaways, a couple of fun things to share just to get people into a bit of the holiday spirit. And so hopefully that'll be a nice way to close off the year.
Alli Torban:
Oh, great. Everybody loves a new date of his book for, for Christmas, right. <Laugh>.
Kat Greenbrook:
They do. And just ideas for gifts and things like that. It's just a bit of a fun time, I think to, yeah. It's let go a little bit. Relax.
Alli Torban:
Well, thank you so much, Kat. It was really great chatting with you and I hope everybody learned a lot from you. I certainly did.
Kat Greenbrook:
Oh, it was so nice just to, to meet with you face to face and have a chat. It's been something that I've been hanging out for years to do and it's just, just nice to, to finally get there.
—
Thanks so much, Kat, for playing the first edition of Next Question with me! My final takeaway is that there are actually some common threads in the next questions that Kat and I used. Here are four questions that came out of our conversation that are super versatile and effective:
Focus on the audience: Ask, "Who needs this data story, and how do they prefer to be communicated with?" Then align your approach directly with their preferences.
Define the goal: Ask, "What is the main takeaway or action we want the audience to have after seeing this?" Then every design decision should support this specific outcome.
Align creative ideas to the goal and audience: Now that we have a clear audience and goal, ask, "Since the main goal is X, which design element here best supports that goal?" Then you can guide the discussion toward aligning creativity with the project’s purpose.
Test your ideas: Ask, "Who can test this to confirm it’s clear?" Then use their feedback to refine the design and emphasize the core message.
There’s a link to everything we talked about in the shownotes at dataviztoday.com/shownotes/96.
Thanks for joining me, I’m Alli Torban, and remember, you need to try something new to be someone new. Talk to you soon, bye now!
